All Mapped Out
I don’t know whether to be honoured, or pissed off … but it seems like these pages have finally got some form of ‘recognition’ - albeit negative.
On my webpages here, I host a collection of alternative & ’silly’ tube maps.
Also, all over the rest of my website, the LU roundel is used, mainly because of the fact that I talk about the tube challenge and the fact that I hold the world record for going round the entire system in the quickest time possible.
On Wednesday of this week, I received the following email:
Dear Geoff
This firm acts for Transport for London and Transport Trading Limited who are respectively the owner and licensee of the world-famous bar and circle device (“the Roundel”) and the Tube Map.
I would like to talk to you about your website www.geofftech.co.uk. Unfortunately, I was unable to trace a telephone number for you on the site, hence the email.
Please contact me at your earliest convenience (my direct line details are below).
I look forward to hearing from you.
Kind regards,
[name removed]
Solicitor
Commercial Department
I read it. Re-read it. Made a cup of tea. Wondered how clueless you have to be to not realise that people with personal webpages tend not to give out their phone numbers on their websites, and then decided to call them up instead and have a friendly ‘chat’.
I actually thought it was a bit strange that they would want to conduct this via telephone where no records could be kept which they could do with either email or on a paper letter, but it would seem that that’s what they wanted to do.
So I got directly through to the solicitor used by TFL and we spoke pleasantly for about ten minutes, whilst I rather (pointlessly?) argued my case whilst they said lots of things referring to “My Client” (meaning TFL) which always makes me chuckle under my breath as it sounds so fucking poncy.
The long and the short of it is, is that I can’t afford any legal representation to argue this one, so when I said “What will you do if I don’t remove the images that you want taken down?” they said that they would get my site taken down for me.
So at the moment, I have “by Monday” (which led to another fun email exchange shortly after as we argued exactly what time on Monday ‘by Monday’ meant), to remove all the ‘offending’ maps that are on this page here, meaning that if you want copies, then go and grab them now.
It’s mainly the silly & alternative maps which are causing offence - but there are a few other graphics on other pages that they’re not happy with.
These though are the same things which have been circulating the internet for the last ten years, and will continue to circulate around as people email them to their mates saying “Have you seen this?”. In fact, I recommend you go and take copies now and forward them round all your friends in an effort to distribute them furthur.
Maybe then someone else will decide to host them, and TFL and their solicitors can spend all their time continually playing catch up on people who decide to put them on their website.
So I’ve decided : I’m pissed off. Of course I am. Why? Well I’m not stupid, so before you all comment “Well you have just nicked their stuff Geoff, it was going to happen sooner or later”, consider this:
* Why me? Why now? Geofftech and the tube has been on the internet for five years now, and I’m not alone in using ‘the roundel’ logo and other such tube graphics. I’ve just done a very simple search this morning, and found 43 other sites within half an hour that have also ’stolen’ the graphic. Are they being contacted as well?
* I think it’s unreasonable for them to ask me to remove each and every mention/roundel/whatever because we got permission for it (during TubeRelief - August of 2005) at which point and time they therefore must of known of me and my efforts and this indicates tacit agreement to useage.
* The majority of the usage falls under fair use provisions in copyright law.
* I’m not making any money from it and as far as I’m concerned, am helping to promote LU and TFL and have given them lots of FREE and GOOD publicity in the past. Right now, I don’t feel like saying anything nice about them.
I also want to know if they’re chasing people/websites/companies that ARE using their logo in a commerical business.
I can understand if they ‘went’ after people who pinched their logo and used it for their commerical business. i.e Waterloo Records - a music shop in Austin, Texas - are they being nobbled, or are they licensed to use it?
There is also ‘Westminster Pies’ in Durban, South Africa - which blantantly nicks the sign.
There is a sandwich shop called ‘Lunch Station’ in Sheffield which uses the roundel. Did they get that licensed? And I also once recall seeing a fashion shop in Manchester that used the logo.
So - [name of lawyer] why aren’t you “acting on behalf of my client” and contacting them? These are people that are using the roundel as part of a commerical business - unlike me, the little man, with a personal website - the easy target for you, right?
I pay money out of my own pocket to host my site, and talk about the tube in a positive, healthy way. I love the tube, it’s a classic system, part of Londons culture, and I’ve always tried to be positive about it - and here’s what I get back in return.
I’m also quite clearly promoting it by saying ‘Look, you can do it all in a day if you’re mad enough‘, and now they want to take me down? Bastards.
So TFL - go pick on someone that IS making money out of you, or is slagging you off. As I think you’re shooting yourself in the foot on this one as there will be a backlash against you.
As this (might!) be your last chance to visit the page, go it here and download them while you can.
And perhaps either email them round to all your friends, or host them yourself !?
After living in London for the first 33 years of my life and working for the 
So for ten weeks in June, July and August 2009, I drove 20,000 miles around the the lower 48 contiguous states of the USA visiting towns and places that shared the same name as places on The London
March 10th, 2006 at 4:57 pm
Sometimes it’s not that easy to get rid of images from the net. For example… http://www.searchenginejournal.com/?p=2983
March 10th, 2006 at 5:00 pm
That’s almost a supportive comment Ian! Wow.
I think TFL, LU, their solictors are really naive if they think they can ‘clear up’ the web of all such images. There will always be “enthusiast sites” out there (as they called me, patronising wankers) who use their logos & graphics.
March 10th, 2006 at 5:05 pm
TfL 1 v Geofftech 0 !!!
Livingstone scores a late winner to defeat the ‘Geofftech’ - clearly a victory for common sense, peace, & socialism!
March 10th, 2006 at 5:39 pm
What twats!!!!
And they would do it while I’m on holiday and not in a positiion to save them all easily..
Reckon they could get a site hosted in another country shut down as easily? Hmmmm…
March 10th, 2006 at 5:48 pm
More emails followed between me and the solictor, including an excellent debate on when exactly ‘by Monday’ we’d agreed on . They said that “according to their records” it would be ‘by the time they logged in at 9am on Monday’. How can they have record on a phone conversation? If they’re recording my phone conversation, don’t they have to tell me?
So I pushed it, and at the moment, midnight Monday (or 11:59.59) will be the moment that i pull the plug. Or at least replace it with something else. And i’ve got some excellent ideas up my sleeve…
March 10th, 2006 at 5:52 pm
Ridiculous. As the creator of the sponsored tube map I can only apologise if I’ve in any way contributed to this ludicrous abuse of your ‘enthusiasm’ for the Tube!
I know there was a fair bit of outrage over the anagram tube map’s creator being pursued by the lawyers a few weeks ago, even to the point of it being featured in the Times here.
So perhaps you could get TfL some negative publicity too, if you want to fight back at minimal cost. No harm sending a condensed version of this post (they’re very busy people!) to a few editors, I wouldn’t have thought.
Good luck, and thanks for hosting my map while it lasted!
March 10th, 2006 at 5:59 pm
This is funny… to quote my boss (who just looked at my site but didn’t comment)
Him: “But didn’t you do that charity thing for them last year, raise loads of money, and use the logo then?”
Me: “Exactly!”
Him: “Well they’re miserable c*nts then”
I like my boss.
#5 - Fimb, don’t worry - I’m still going to have copies which I can email to you, aren’t I?
I think even an anonymous hosting on an MSN MySpace based in the UK would work. Very hard to prove who owns it, and if it gets taken down another one can be created. Then all ’someone’ has to do is link to it.
#7 - Paul. Negative publicity already in hand! People don’t tag me a ‘media whore’ for nothing y’know …
March 10th, 2006 at 6:38 pm
March 10th, 2006 at 6:43 pm
Absolutly insane! Your site promotes Tfl, is the London Underground blog next for the heavy treatment? I’ve often got info on the underground from yours and annie moles blog (well its more upto date than your music posts
)
Your boss summed it up perfectly. I suppose in an age of PPP, we can expect tfl to clamp down on everything that uses “their” copyright without them getting cash for it.
Can you not speak to whoever you contacted when doing tube relief and point out how stupid they are being
March 10th, 2006 at 6:54 pm
Leave the Tube Relief ones up. You have permission to use them.
This is corporate anality to the point of ridiculum. It is absurd. TfL are a bunch of wankers.
I know you’re not a man who does things by halves, Geff… England expects that you do your duty against TfL.
Make the bad publicity prominent and widespread. I will join you on any protests. We are united as one. After all, when it comes to TfL’s lawyers, WE ARE NOT AFRAID!
Well, we’re all afraid of jail, but NOT THE LAWYERS!
March 10th, 2006 at 6:55 pm
Actually, here’s an idea:
1. Save entirety of Geofftech to your computer.
2. Let the lawyers “have it taken down”.
3. Tell every newspaper int he country and get on the news and everything.
4. Put geofftech back up somewhere else.
5. THEN remove the LUL logos!
March 10th, 2006 at 7:15 pm
how about someone creating a visit Geofftech banner or sidebar graphic using the tfl logo that people can put up on their blogs. They would have to threaten every single person who links to you then.
March 10th, 2006 at 7:48 pm
Geoff,
The simple solution would be to host the maps on a website (or several) external to yours and then link to them. There is no way TFL could have your site taken down for this. Plus they would then have to chase / threaten several ISP’s or webhosts to remove the content which would be more hassle than its worth. BTW there is a piece of art in the Tate Modern which is an alterted Tube Map which has been reproduced as posters and sold in their gift shop. I wonder if they pay TFL a licencing fee.
March 10th, 2006 at 8:04 pm
Geoff, Block the IP address from their proxy
Lots of trailing through logs, but if you can do…! Site still up but no TFL/their solicitor access 
Worth a go!
March 10th, 2006 at 8:51 pm
Readers may be amused to know that I’m the wife of the aforementioned creator of the Sponsored Tube Map - this is becoming a family affair!
First, a disclaimer: I am not a lawyer, so don’t take any of this as legal advice. I’m merely a trainee information professional (i.e. librarian) who happens to be studying intellectual property law at the moment, so what I’ve said below is my opinion informed by that study.
So, first let’s look at trademarks. The first thing to note is that to infringe a trademark (as far as I’m aware) you need to use a trademark *commercially* and in the field the trademark relates to. I would therefore argue that as your website is personal and non-commercial, you can’t be nobbled for trademark infringement. However, for completeness’ sake let’s take a quick look at TfL’s relevant trademarks.
Community trademarks apply throughout the EU or EC or something. You can use the link to search for all TfL’s trademarks by entering ‘Transport for London’ in the Owner field, or search for the trade mark numbers given:
1. Black roundel: 000299206 (covers paper products but not digital)
2. colour roundel containing the text ‘Underground’: 003966082 - this one would be the most worrying, but it doesn’t appear to be fully registered yet as there’s opposition pending from Piccadilly Shoes Limited. It covers class 41 which includes ‘entertainment by or relating to games, competitions, quizzes; [...] organization and presentation of shows and live performances, competitions, games; quizzes; education services; arranging and conducting of conferences and seminars and workshops; [...] provision of on-line electronic publications; information relating to education, entertainment, sporting and cultural activities provided on-line from a computer database or the Internet or provided by other means; recreational services; [...] education services; cultural activities.’
3. Black and white Roundel containing the text ‘Underground’: 003219268 (covers class 41 as above, and is fully registered so might be tricky)
UK trademarks can be registered separately - again, search ‘proprietor’ for TfL or search for the case numbers:
1. Black roundel: 586249 (paper and stationary uses only)
2. Black roundel again: 1094664 (paper and other uses, still not digital uses)
Finally, if they haven’t registered their logo as a TM in America or South Africa, they can’t sue for infringement *unless* the company is targeting customers in the UK, which might explain the two blatant infringements you have demonstrated (although not the Manchester one you remember!)
So, I think you’re fairly safe on TMs. However, copyright is a whole different issue - I’ll post a second comment on that as soon as I’ve written it
March 10th, 2006 at 9:41 pm
Oh my Gawd!
That last post left me reeling! Makes you wanna go live in the U.S.A all this TFL rubbish, this country that I used to love is fast becoming a joke, I saw it coming after the 1997 election, that’s why I went to live in Ireland.
Unfortunately I had to come back. Why do they always want to bring people down who are only trying to do their bit?
Rise above it Geoff, we are right behind you.
March 10th, 2006 at 9:50 pm
[...] Geoff has been asked by Transport For London to take down his collection of silly Tube maps by Monday - so go to his site and collect ‘em all before they disappear. [...]
March 10th, 2006 at 10:17 pm
Thanks for the heads up-
I’m on my way to save them all directly.
I’ll happily post them to my site, hosted in the US, if you’d like a quick link too while you plot your next steps.
March 10th, 2006 at 10:22 pm
I sympathise. I admire your site and all you do to
promote TFL. It’s outragous for them to do this.
I’ve seen links to your site in a large number of places,
so it really will be missed.
it’s a bit late now but I bet you wish :
“Email, what email?” we all know how unreliable it is,
if only you’d ignored it.
but if they are only complaining about that one page
why not just rename it?
March 10th, 2006 at 10:25 pm
ARSEHOLES!
March 10th, 2006 at 11:24 pm
Hmmmmm…
March 10th, 2006 at 11:38 pm
Pathetic…
If they had all that money to spend on lawyers, you would have thought it could be better spent somewhere else, improving the service perhaps?
March 10th, 2006 at 11:51 pm
This just leaves me speechless. How can they possibly justify the time and money spent on pursuing you?
I am very much looking forward to the Geofftech backlash of negative publicity, oh yes indeed…
March 11th, 2006 at 12:45 am
This is where our recurring ticket price hikes are spent. Paying lawyers to browse the internet.
March 11th, 2006 at 1:05 am
Well, I, umm, definitely haven’t taken a copy of the everything under http://www.geofftech.co.uk/tube and certainly aren’t willing to email it to anyone who wants it…
Or something.
March 11th, 2006 at 1:50 am
Personally, i’m dying to know how TFL’s solicitors are going to cope with the numerous web archiving sites that are out there.
e.g follow this link:
http://web.archive.org/web/20041010143541/www.geofftech.co.uk/tube/sillymaps/index.htm
for an (admittedly) rather old version of my page that is not hosted and has nothing to do with me - but it exists never the less.
and we all know that that’s not the only archiver out there, and it’s not just my page it’s archiving.
March 11th, 2006 at 2:26 am
There’s a sandwich shop around here which uses what would appear to be a roundel almost identical to that of TFL as their brand identity.
I can safely say I’m glad I don’t pay London taxes.
March 11th, 2006 at 5:50 am
Disgusted. Will be firing off an email to Sheriff Ken for what it’s worth. Do these people realise what damage their solicitors are doing to their image? ( I suspect Ken will say it’s nothing to do with him).
March 11th, 2006 at 7:44 am
… Better pre ‘97 - You’ve been reading the daily mail (lower case!) again haven’t you T-B-T?!?
March 11th, 2006 at 8:55 am
Shocked. And stunned.
I think most of it has been said….. do you know whether this is actually a specific request by TFL or just the lawyers acting errr.. “over zealously”?
Either way absolutely ridiculous.
And a great shame.
March 11th, 2006 at 9:37 am
argh, this is ridiculous! if someone can tell me how to put images up i’ll be happy to put them on my wiki, they can’t attack that because it’s public (I think)
i’m also willing to come protest if it come to that, i wonder how many people we could get?
March 11th, 2006 at 11:30 am
Oh god, blitz the papers with this: they’ll have a field day with TfL’s pathetic hypocrisy.
By lunchtime Monday, you’ll have an apology from the lawyers - it’s gotta be worth a try.
Good luck mate. We’re all behind you.
March 11th, 2006 at 11:39 am
#30: I have not read the ‘daily rant’ for 25 years, I’m apolitical now - i.e. don’t follow anybody, just my instincts.
I just don’t go along with all this Political Correctness stuff and timewasting antics of certain people, and I think the money could be better spent improving the transport services.
March 11th, 2006 at 12:49 pm
[I am still not a lawyer, yaddayadda]
First, a quick addendum to my TM post - I forgot to mention firstly that companies can be pursued for making ‘groundless threats’ if they threaten people with legal action without due cause. This probably isn’t relevant since I think they have a case on copyright grounds if nothing else. Also, there’s another law against ‘passing off’, but I think your site is pretty obviously not pretending to be associated with or written by TfL so you’re quite safe there too!
Right, now for copyright. Copyright protects expressions of ideas rather than ideas themselves, and there’s two main types of copyright: economic and moral.
Infringing economic rights seems to require that you are depriving the rightsholder from rightful income. Ok, you’re reproducing their stuff (well, edited versions) without permission, but as they make tube maps freely available on the internet (and in good enough quality to print posters of if you wanted) then I can’t really see how you’re losing them income - you may even be saving them bandwidth costs
Infringement includes making these things ‘available to the public’ and ‘adaptations’, but as I said no-one is profiting or losing out from these actions.
I think moral rights is where you fall down. Authors have the right (among other things) to ‘prevent or object to any derogatory treatment of their work.’ So, if they see those adaptations as derogatory to the map they have the right to pull them. Thing is, moral rights are a relatively recent addition to UK law so I have no idea what action’s been taken using this law to date.
I don’t think fair dealing applies in this situation, sadly. However, I agree with your other defences, and I definitely think they have shot themselves in the foot as you are clearly a huge fan of the tube and I cannot comprehend why they’ve decided to make an enemy of you. Copyright law is in a bit of a state at the moment anyway as people are starting to realise that it is simply inadequate when dealing with the digital environment, and there’s a big power struggle going on between publishers et al (representing rightsholders) and librarians et al (representing society as a whole).
Grey areas I’m not sure on: are any drawings of the roundel you create yourself infringements? (I don’t think so because they’re a new expression of the idea.) What about taking a photo of the roundel or the tube map and posting it online? (Again I would think this is ok because it’s a new expression but I’m even more unsure here!)
Best of luck with it all, and I hope your media whoring is going well!
March 11th, 2006 at 1:06 pm
In reference to the ‘moral rights’ area, I do believe that there is a clause that allows spoof or parody to occur, so long as it is clearly not intended to be passed off as the real thing.
Know anything about this, Edith?
Or does anybody know a lawyer?
March 11th, 2006 at 1:39 pm
The whole things seems like utter nonsense to me. I can’t see what your doing wrong, in alot of cases everything is said in a positive light, and the fact they are doing this even after all the effort you put in for tuberelief is a kick in the teeth. ungratfull swines.
March 11th, 2006 at 1:59 pm
…#34 - TfL & Ken HAVE improved transport services. I do believe, & i’m not just saying this to wind-up our “enthusiast website” webmaster, big corporations & organisations do have the right to defend their “intellectual property”…..right, or wrong - but that’s the way it is.
March 11th, 2006 at 2:13 pm
Sorry to hear about this. I have been using your maps as a example of popular culture while I lecture on copyright and technology. Now I will continue to do so but add the fact that LU have attempted to censor the maps.
Greetings from Sweden!
March 11th, 2006 at 2:22 pm
#36 - the parody thing sounded familiar so I did a bit of digging. Unfortunately, although parody is fair use under US law, this is what I found regarding UK law:
“[UK Intellectual Property law] may apply to activities that would occur anyway, and it may prevent or inhibit activities that may be socially beneficial. One example is the restrictive way in which UK law treats parody. Nowhere do the trademark or copyright laws say straightforwardly that “parody” or “fair parody” is acceptable and indeed to be encouraged. This has led to case-by-case adjudication with few clear standards. Potential parodists are left to beware or rue.” [emphasis mine]
This was written in 1999 by David Vaver, Reuters Professor of Intellectual Property & Information Technology Law. I’ve checked out the main update to the copyright law since then, and that doesn’t mention parodies at all
On the positive side, while trawling for parody law I found this in the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988:
“62. Representation of certain artistic works on public display.
(1) This section applies to—
(a) buildings, and
(b) sculptures, models for buildings and works of artistic craftsmanship, if permanently situated in a public place or in premises open to the public.
(2) The copyright in such a work is not infringed by—
(a) making a graphic work representing it,
(b) making a photograph or film of it, or
(c) broadcasting or including in a cable programme service a visual image of it.
(3) Nor is the copyright infringed by the issue to the public of copies, or the broadcasting or inclusion in a cable programme service, of anything whose making was, by virtue of this section, not an infringement of the copyright.” (emphasis mine again)
I *think* this means that uploading photos or your own representations created from scratch of the roundel and/or original tube map are ok
(by the way, in case anyone reading thinks I’m incredibly sad doing all this research, I have to write an essay discussing current Intellectual Property law and its limitations soon, so this is all great background research!
)
March 11th, 2006 at 2:40 pm
Well there may be hope… after all, a certain local council changed its mind on trying to fine some guy £50 for putting his junk mail in a public litter-bin.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/leicestershire/4792490.stm
March 11th, 2006 at 4:45 pm
Print them out on paper and take a photo of them…
March 11th, 2006 at 5:07 pm
I don’t think the taking a photo thing works. As I understand it, if you take a photo and the item is incidental to the composition that is OK, but if you take a photo solely of an individual item for the purpose of a copy, then that is not.
March 11th, 2006 at 7:14 pm
Silly tube people. Maybe they have a lawyer on staff and they got a bit bored and just googled someone to sue to keep themselves busy…
March 11th, 2006 at 7:37 pm
I wonder if TfL can sue Flickr?
Shall we find out?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/53467001@N00/sets/72057594079820301/
TfL are fools, keep up the good work Jeff…
March 11th, 2006 at 9:22 pm
You’ve missed one, there are 19 and you only have 18.
You got there first, HBAMH, but just so i don’t feel like I’ve wasted my time - I’ve also put them at jonnylyon.fotopic.net
March 11th, 2006 at 10:06 pm
Suitably chastened, and revised…
March 12th, 2006 at 12:27 am
[...] So why on earth has Transport for London chosen to nastygram him in an effort to remove all these parodies, wash away the goodwill and replace it with corporate down-the-line blandness? A network built with Londoners’ money, sold off to corporate interests and now cynically demanding ownership of their ubiquitous and ancient part of our urban landscape is just depressing. I hardly imagine Ken agrees this is how TFL’s budget should be being spent. For my part, I’m going to mirror the maps as long as I can. For your own part, I suggest taking an archive and holding on to them: they’re a useful resource and amusing distraction for Londoners that we can scarcely rely on others, least of all TFL, for. [...]
March 12th, 2006 at 1:08 am
Fantastic!
You know who are that made it! (Not me). I love it!
March 12th, 2006 at 9:21 am
Pure Genius!
March 12th, 2006 at 10:15 am
how bent are you….
March 12th, 2006 at 10:36 am
Get It While You Can
Go there now. Because Transport for London is not happy. For whatever reason. Update: More at Annie Mole’s weblog. Update: Check out The Tube Remixed by harrybeckisdead at flickr.
March 12th, 2006 at 11:04 am
Oh, these people are sick who try to take those lovely maps offline!
Are you making money with it? Are you dishonouring the map? Both a “no”, so why should they complain?
What A Negative Klass Entering Rediculous Stupidity.
March 12th, 2006 at 12:10 pm
How marvellous… this is NOT my website! But it looks like it
http://ni.chol.as/media/sillytube.html
March 12th, 2006 at 12:11 pm
It seems to me that all this “Intellectual Property infringement” rubbish has come about since responsibility for licensing of things like the roundel and map shifted from the London Transport Museum to TfL’s Commercial Department.
Just for a laugh (as I’m sure it would be a ridiculous amount), you could always try contacting the Commercial Licensing Department and seeing how much they’d want you to pay. Details can be found here. And, of course, submit a complaint via LU Customer Services about this overzealous behaviour.
March 12th, 2006 at 12:33 pm
I’ve sent the story to boingboing.net (most popular blog? certainly big, and are good at highlighting such idiocy as shown by LU). Maybe a few other people can too?
You could also try sending a letter to your MP, Councillor or GLA member through http://www.writetothem.com/
It might not help save Geoff for Monday, but more exposure is always a good thing.
March 12th, 2006 at 1:02 pm
I forgot to mention before that maybe they conducted the whole thing by phone to minimise the evidence of ‘groundless threats’ or maybe just to avoid you quoting even more of them on their website since they knew they sounded like idiots!
By the way, I posted a comment on the parody argument yesterday but it still seems to be under moderation (probably because there’s a few links in it). It basically says parody isn’t protected in UK law, but taking photos or drawing pictures of things on public display (e.g. LU roundel) is ok.
March 12th, 2006 at 1:41 pm
They want me to pay £150+vat per year. Here’s a copy of the email from the man at TFL:
Dear Geoff
In order to display the Underground map on your website you will need to take out a licence agreement the licence lasts for a period of twelve months after you can either remove the map from your website or renew the licence.
The fee for the twelve month licence is £150.00 + VAT; this includes the rights to display the map on your website and also for the supply of the map artwork.
Alternatively you can link to the TfL website homepage free of charge.
Please ensure the requested images are deleted from your website by 13th March.
Regards
-name removed-
Love the fact that I can “Link to them free of charge”, well duh …
(And parody argument comment now ‘approved’ Edith - bit slack of me, sorry!! Info very much apprecitated - but comments with more than one URL get automatically put in the mod Q, yes)
March 12th, 2006 at 3:17 pm
Have you considered writing back to the licensing department to ask them to confirm that this licence would allow you to display all the maps previously displayed… the implication being that they’re not actually offended, they just want all the money they can get.
Also, I think the most recent batch of maps is a direct result of interest created by the guardian’s music map.
March 12th, 2006 at 3:30 pm
Ian, I would definitely agree with that - it’s the Guardian’s music map (along with the presumably similarly inspired anagram map) that inspired me to create the sponsored one, so you have a very good point, that they brought this on themselves to some extent!
March 12th, 2006 at 4:22 pm
Well here is something interesting licensing page of the above LT museum website links to the one stop map shop which has a free LU map on it at http://www.onestopmapshop.co.uk/download/osms_ltm.pdf with big letters proclaiming “This map is not to be reproduced for comercial purposes”. This means that by implicit implication, the map IS allowed to be reproduced for non-comercial purposes. Otherwise it would just say “This map is not to be reproduced”
March 12th, 2006 at 5:25 pm
“13th March”
Which year?
March 12th, 2006 at 5:30 pm
LOL! Ooooh Yorkie, don’t tempt me!
The eMail from the solictor reads:
Dear Geoff,
My records do indicate that we agreed by Monday morning.
I would like to remind you that an infringement is an infringement regardless of how long it has been going on and my client has every right to protect their intellectual property.
However, bearing in mind your situation and the fact that your site is of an enthusiast nature, I am willing to extend the deadline in your case.
For the avoidance of doubt, the revised deadline for removal of ALL images which infringe my client’s intellectual property is midnight on Monday 13 March.
My client reserves their right to take further legal action against you if the revised deadline is not adhered to.
I would remind you that my client may be amenable to you using the image of the tube map on your website provided it was properly licensed. To this end please contact [name removed]@tfl.gov.uk.
I trust this clarifies matters – please confirm that you will abide by this deadline.
Kind regards
[name removed]
And you’re right - she doesn’t mention which year!
March 12th, 2006 at 5:40 pm
*sighs*
This reminds me of Lyle’s Destruction for Dummies saga of a few years ago now…
I’ll do a quick spell… But, in the meantime… have you thought about asking for a meeting with the TfL person telling their lawyer to take this action, to discuss the issues and work towards a solution?
There are several people around blogland with, shall we say, relevant professional skills in this sort of thing, and some may be happy to volunteer to help you out. Or, maybe other media bods would happily support you?
Personally I’d call their bluff. Because I suspect they’re hoping their verbal threats and intimidation will scare you into complying. IANAL, but I’d think that they’d have to serve papers properly in order to enforce something like this, and if they can’t find you, they can’t do that…
March 12th, 2006 at 6:50 pm
Alternative Tube Maps
For some reason, TfL has decided to issue a cease & desist notice to a chap who hosted alternative tube maps on his website. As of Monday 13 March, who won't be able to find them there anymore. So for anyone interested in these artful, funny, …
March 12th, 2006 at 7:31 pm
Don’t you work in the media section for BBC?…a few changes to the bbc homepage to display the saga…I’m happy for my license fee to be spent on that;)
March 12th, 2006 at 8:10 pm
Ohh, bad luck, Geoff. Perhaps you could direct them to Waveform’s web site (http://www.freewebs.com/waveformonthetube/index.htm) and see what they make of that.
March 12th, 2006 at 8:17 pm
Woo…latest post on uneasysilence:
http://www.uneasysilence.com/
March 12th, 2006 at 9:13 pm
*spits her organic Cornish scrumpy over the screen at Mrs Webb’s post*
March 12th, 2006 at 10:51 pm
Good lord, Mrs Webb!
Why didn’t anybody think of that before?!
If Geofftech’s going down, we may as well take Waveform down with us!
March 12th, 2006 at 11:07 pm
You do know it’s a criminal offence to attempt to induce shutdown of the optic nerve in a lawyer or any other person due to visual hideousness, don’t you, Mrs Webb.
March 12th, 2006 at 11:26 pm
Geoff,
Pasted here as requested
It’s totally unreasonable what TfL are doing and it seems they’re only doing it ’cause they can. Not because you’re ripping them off.
If they’re systematically scouting the ‘net for websites that ‘breach’ their copyrights or whatever, then I wonder what the future holds for any tube related website? Of course, I now fear for my own site, standclearoftheclosingdoors.co.uk, which has maps I’ve created from the original TfL versions plus the potentially troublesome hundred or so photos I’ve taken of various parts of the network.
Here’s hoping they don’t end up trying to do a Microsoft style ‘buy out’ of every tube website by pummelling them to the ground.
Of all the people to attack, I least expected it to be you and your site, especially when you’ve done nine ‘All 275′ jaunts with little complaint from TfL.
Anyway, I suppose there’s little that can be done now…damn it.
Let’s hope this has a nice ending!
March 12th, 2006 at 11:36 pm
Another mirror now here:
http://pfig.livejournal.com/80698.html
March 12th, 2006 at 11:52 pm
I assume you realise midnight on Monday 13th is in about 7 minutes time, and not at the other end of the day…
March 13th, 2006 at 12:05 am
Unbelievable, Still like you say no year stated and i believe the next Monday 13th of March is in the year 2017. Don’t let the bastewards rind you down :).
March 13th, 2006 at 12:34 am
Kirk … Nice try, but no. My ‘deadline’ is midnight of Monday going into Tuesday.
But let’s see what happens during Monday daytime first, shall we?
March 13th, 2006 at 1:11 am
Dear Mr. London Transport.
Perhaps you would be so kind as to fix your fucking bag of shite tube system rather than picking on my harmless mate Geoffrey here.
Fankyou.
March 13th, 2006 at 1:54 am
Unfortunately, it’s not about wiping all traces of these maps off the face of the earth. It’s about being seen to try and enforce an action to wipe all traces of the maps off the face of the earth - otherwise, supposing Gary Glitter or some other equally “evil” person infringes copyright of the LT maps in a suitably disgusting manner, LT wouldn’t have a leg to stand on when it comes to enforcing copyright on that occasion as it hasnt’ tried to enforce it in other ways.
It’s a huge bloody chuffin’ shame, but short of having friends in high places within LT, you don’t have a leg to stand on.
Is it just the “comedy” ones that you have to take down, or *anything* with a tube map superimposed on it, like some of the genuinely useful ones?
The alternative is, of course, to house the maps on a US or an equally remote non-UK web server, where presumably the maps are not trademarked in the country the webserver is located?
March 13th, 2006 at 1:56 am
Oh yes, and remember the time when the Jurassic Park logo was accused of being very similar to the London Transport logo?
I’m not sure who won the battle there, but you could reasonably point out that if a major Hollywood studio can use it, why can’t you. Although we all know the reason is that they have lawyers and you don’t…
You could ask everyone to contribute £1 into a “defend the maps!” legal pot (and move the maps to a non-UK-based webserver in the meantime)…
March 13th, 2006 at 2:16 am
[...] So how do you reward these interesting endeveaours from my mate Geoff? You threaten to take his website offline unless he removes said maps. Fortunately, because London Transport are such nice chaps (not), they’ve given him a deadline of Monday midnight (UK time). [...]
March 13th, 2006 at 4:04 am
Geoff - does the world famous roundel have a missing pixel in the bottom right hand corner? If not, just mod all your roundels by deleting one pixel, and hey presto, tell them to stick their “perfect roundel” up their bum.
March 13th, 2006 at 8:12 am
The loveley solictior I spoke to last week (on the phone) made the point that even if I had a symbol that vaguely looked like the roundel, that because it would be used in the context of my ‘tube’ pages, this would still be an infringement.
e.g. The ‘Nike Swish’ variation that I’ve made (on my homepage) is obviously NOT the exact logo, but close enough to cause them to not like it. And they also threatened me with the line “I’m suprised that Nike haven’t been in contact with you”. Really? I’m not … I’m one tiny insiginificant website that is doing them no harm, and they’re not arseholes like you are.
I suspect a lot of this IS to do with http://www.onestopmapshop.co.uk which appears to be a new site. I think that since they’ve launched this to sell official maps online, they’re now having a sweep of the web to try and clean it up.
But hasn’t anyone else out there with roundels/maps/logos on their pages been contacted yet? Or is it still just me at moment ?!
March 13th, 2006 at 8:29 am
Oh, and suddenly the “Greedy” line in the Adam Kay and Suman Biswas pissktake is more relevant than ever! Give it a play to remind yourself of how brilliant it is:
http://www.geofftech.co.uk/tube/london_underground.swf
March 13th, 2006 at 9:06 am
looking vaguely like the roundel? I’d like to see them try that one!
“But, your honour, it’s round with a straight line through it”
“It’s a picture of bleeding hamburger. Case dismissed”
March 13th, 2006 at 9:39 am
It’s a bit of a stupid situation really. Surely LU are shooting thenselves in the foot by threatening tube-happy people in the hope they can get you to pay some money to them?!
… surely they get more money from tube-interested people buying tickets to do tube challenges than they would make from getting you to pay £150 a year to put things approaching their trademark somewhere.
Other than that…what happens if the images that are tube-related are hosted on a server somewhere in the US, but are still a part of your page? (not the whole pages - if the html says__ or just by it being shown on a UK hosted website would that infringe their laws still?
Ss there any way that you can argue that you’re using the images to drum up enthusiasm for the tube in the first place - i mean it’s not as if the symbols and maps are emblazoned with ‘THE TUBE IS A CROCK OF SHITE’ or something instead of saying “underground”. You’re encouraging people to explore the tube, to spend money using it, perhaps even do their own challenge and look at something that’s got lots of history behind it.
Next they’ll be trying to ban enthusiasm or something!
March 13th, 2006 at 10:07 am
what about a “roundel” in another shape? say an octagonal, diamond or square, would they be able to attack you then? half the roundels on the site are diagonal/3D doesn’t that mean that they’re not the official roundel? what if you changed the colours?
March 13th, 2006 at 10:08 am
I wouldn’t be surprised if their just trying to shut down websites that are better than theirs! Look at the bloody http://www.onestopmapshop.co.uk/ site for instance; it’s riddled with debug errors for a start!
March 13th, 2006 at 10:48 am
It’s not just in London…
http://www.torontoist.com/archives/2006/03/go_sean_go.php
Though, really… Am I the only person not in the least bit surprised?
March 13th, 2006 at 11:32 am
86 - the Metropolitan ’roundel’ used to be a diamond, so they would probably come after you over that too.
March 13th, 2006 at 12:41 pm
Here’s a zip file containing all the maps, HTM, CSS and a readme.txt file for a quick and easy way of hosting all the ’sillymaps’ on your own space should you desire …
March 13th, 2006 at 12:55 pm
How many 50p’s to buy a licence?
March 13th, 2006 at 1:21 pm
If there’s one thing Geoff should never do, it’s buy a licence and satisfy their greedy bank account.
Will host maps later.
March 13th, 2006 at 2:05 pm
Just one little thing, the Underground map is NOT a trademark, nor is it a registered design of any sort. This higher level of IP protection is described on the UK Patent Office web site. Read through this, and you will see that the Underground map could not be made a registered design even if TfL wanted to, it is not clever or distinctive enough.
So, all they have is potential copyright infringements, a much lower level of protection, but one that is generally resolved in favour of the person with th emost money.
March 13th, 2006 at 2:54 pm
Just made a mirror of the offending page - that took ages! (Freewebs charges you for uploading more than 1 file at a time)
If enough people do the same maybe TfL’s lawyers will give up.
Also, did you ever consider that it could be a prank? Just a thought.
March 13th, 2006 at 3:02 pm
Hi!
In 1974 when on a visit to Thailand I noticed that a large number of the buses in Bangkok carried the same roundel device with the same colours as London Transport. London Transport did not run the buses and the only similarity was that on a good day both bus sevices drive on the left hand side of the carriageway.
Have you checked the ownership of the Transport for London roundel? The chances are high that they have not correctly established it at the Trade Marks Registry and you are being subjected to an actionable unjustifiable threat. Check the Trade Marks Act 1994.
Guy
March 13th, 2006 at 3:15 pm
#94 - It’s not a prank.
I made an effort to check out the solicitors office to make sure it’s legit, and the person that contacted me. They are for real.
March 13th, 2006 at 3:21 pm
Another 3rd-party mirror of the silly maps page to go with the archive.org one:
http://www.hanzoweb.com/browser/20060313155845/2781/
March 13th, 2006 at 3:39 pm
Send your story to some newspapers, I think they’d quite like the whole David vs Golliath angle they could put on it:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/section/0,,549,00.html (try this address, I couldn’t find a ’story one’)
http://www.thesun.co.uk/section/0,,23,00.html
March 13th, 2006 at 4:32 pm
two more mirrors..
http://uk.geocities.com/tube_maps/sillytube.html
http://www.gordie.co.uk/sillytubemaps/
March 13th, 2006 at 4:46 pm
Typical bloody English redtape!! I suppose it’s yet another case of Big Brother is watching and controlling you even though you don’t think they are).
Shame they have threatened you with legal proceedings as it’s cool sites like yours that people have been reading since July 7th and kept them going on LU. Good luck with whatever action you decide to take and I’ll make sure that I keep checking for updates.
March 13th, 2006 at 4:50 pm
I don’t think David and Goliath is the right sort of analogy for this situation; the point in D vs. G is that D was always bound to win because he had the sling, so G couldn’t touch him.
Unless the Goliath in this case also has the metaphorical sling. Which they essentially do!
March 13th, 2006 at 5:26 pm
Goliath was 9′ tall and had lots of armour. He told the tribe that David was part of that they should fight, and the loosing man’s tribe would serve the other tribe forever. David was a local lad whose faith in God convinced him to enter the battle. His dad had tried to give him armour, but the armour was of no use to him; too heavy and he wasn’t familiar with it.
1 Samuel 17: http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=1%20Samuel+17&version=31
March 13th, 2006 at 5:59 pm
You could try writing a letter to Ken Livingstone
March 13th, 2006 at 6:21 pm
I’ve already emailed Ken!
And four kind kind peple (who have all left comments here) have CC’d me in on emails that they have also all sent to him to. I’m expecting a generic reponse written by one of his monkey minions any moment now …
Still, if you want to help fill up “his” inbox, then you can go for it at: mayor@london.gov.uk
March 13th, 2006 at 6:53 pm
102. Alright, so it’s relevant.
I hosted the maps.
http://homepages.tesco.net/houseofsteel/sillytube.html
March 13th, 2006 at 6:58 pm
Whilst I was in Denmark recently I found a shop called Underground, using the roundel as a logo with Underground written on it. I wonder if TFL will bother chasing after them, and all the other international ones, or perhaps next time I am in the town I should just try and ask them where the Jubilee line is???
March 13th, 2006 at 7:00 pm
#82 (Geoff) - “The loveley solictior I spoke to last week (on the phone) made the point that even if I had a symbol that vaguely looked like the roundel, that because it would be used in the context of my ‘tube’ pages, this would still be an infringement.”
This smacks of ‘groundless threats’ to me, which backs up my theory as to why you were told this on the phone only. Under copyright law, ideas aren’t protected, so if you draw your own roundel-ish thing (especially reversing colours as you’ve done) that is *your* creation, not theirs.
#95 (Guy) - “Have you checked the ownership of the Transport for London roundel? The chances are high that they have not correctly established it at the Trade Marks Registry and you are being subjected to an actionable unjustifiable threat. Check the Trade Marks Act 1994.”
Yes, they do have the roundel trademarked for online stuff (see my comment #16 for details including links to European and UK trade mark databases), but only in black and white containing the word ‘Underground’ as the colour submission is being contested. Anyway, as I’ve said before I thought that trademarks could only be infringed by *commercial* use, you’re not pretending to be anything to do with them so you’re not ‘passing off’, and as up to very recently you were extremely positive about the tube network they couldn’t even accuse you of using it for defamation!
#85 (Kate) - “Other than that…what happens if the images that are tube-related are hosted on a server somewhere in the US, but are still a part of your page? (not the whole pages - if the html says__ or just by it being shown on a UK hosted website would that infringe their laws still?”
In short, it still infringes. Copyright is valid (practically) worldwide because of conventions and things (Berne Convention, maybe?).
I still think they can only really get you on the moral rights of copyright, but of course I am not a lawyer and they’ve got legal representation, so my opinion is worth sweet F. A.
I’ve got a friend visiting from Scotland next week. I’m actually starting to consider only using the train to get him to London and then getting him a tour bus ticket instead of a travelcard for the tube et al because the idea of giving money to these people at the moment is making me feel sick. (and I love public transport and the tube! I feel so sad and disappointed
)
March 13th, 2006 at 8:21 pm
I don’t really have anything to add apart from what the others have all said. Fight the good fight!
March 13th, 2006 at 8:42 pm
Geoff. Same as Gary can’t really say much else, though I will be sending an email to Ken tomorrow from my offical looking email address! Thanks for the zip download as well, good luck with everything. D
March 13th, 2006 at 9:13 pm
Hey - writetothem.com does work - response from the office of Len Duvall
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Len_Duvall
> Len is taking this up with Transport for London and
> he will send you a more detailed response as soon
> as he has further information.
>
> Regards
>
> [name removed]
> Researcher to Len Duvall AM
Why don’t a few more of you drop a line to your London Assembly member on behalf of Geoff?
http://www.writetothem.com
I’ll let you know what I hear.
March 13th, 2006 at 9:32 pm
I have emailed Ken, begging him to intervene! I hope everyone elso does too.
March 13th, 2006 at 9:37 pm
I have done so too (from my KCL address), threatening not to renew my monthly travelcard. CC’d to Geoff.
March 13th, 2006 at 9:40 pm
Here are two great ideas:
1 - Replace the “silly maps” page with (an ever-growing) list of all the 3rd-party mirrors people have put up of that page. That’ll keep them nice and busy and waste even more time and money that should be put into sorting out minor insignifcancies like the Northern Line.
2 - in reponse to #84 - I think it’d be great if somsone got as much red and blue food colouring as was neccessary, and dyed a bap red, and a nice big piece of steak (or large elongated burger) blue, and took a photo of the burger in aforementioned bap. That could then be used wherever the official LU roundel used to exist on this site. Geoff could even register it as a trademark (call it the GeffBurger or something), and freely give permission for any tube enthusiast website to use it.
March 13th, 2006 at 10:02 pm
Geoff, has anyone spotted your ever so teeny map of the New York subway? You’ll have them on to you next.
You have had a fantastic response to this LU post, reading it beats watching T.V.
March 13th, 2006 at 10:15 pm
Hey Geoff -
Glad to see you’re getting the support - if you do take them all down at the fast-approaching midnight deadline (and even if you don’t), make sure you take ^^Peter’s advice and post a good long list of mirrors!
Keep on keepin’ on…
March 13th, 2006 at 10:18 pm
Midnight is indeed approaching! Do you think they’ve stayed up late at TFL towers, hovering over the ‘F5′ button ready to see what I do? ~chuckle~
Maybe I should give them an award if they get the first comment in after midnight. Bless ‘em.
I can reveal now, that I did some media-whoreage earlier for a well known national radio station. But they asked me not to blog it until it’s gone out, as it’s linked to a podcast that they do. But i’ll post here (along with a recording of it) the moment it’s gone out if anyone is interested. It’ll be within the next few hours …
March 13th, 2006 at 11:03 pm
Have you considered approaching using the “lunch station” or “Waterloo Pies” logo instead? I’m sure they are too small to take you to task over it, and would probably appreciate the advertising. (plus it will be really funny when the lawyers accuse you of not changing the logos.. when you have…)
March 13th, 2006 at 11:04 pm
Posting a recording of a radio broadcast? Have the last few days taught you NOTHING!
March 13th, 2006 at 11:19 pm
Nice bit of publicity … like it!
PS Thanks for my map
March 13th, 2006 at 11:19 pm
Well known national radio station eh? I take it you couldn’t wangle a Breaking News spot on News 24 then?
March 13th, 2006 at 11:25 pm
Not really TV friendly is it? Bit ’tis good for radio discussion. On a talk radio station - a national one. For the same company that I work for!
It’s quite handy being able just to nip down the corridor to the studio in same building that I work in to do it …
March 13th, 2006 at 11:27 pm
Oh, and just over half an hour to go! Now then, about these logos & maps. What shall I do with them … ?
March 13th, 2006 at 11:28 pm
Actually, you know what annoys me the most about all this?
They may be saying it’s a breach of their intellectual property and all that, but then why the hell have they got PDF files on the TfL website showing how ALL their signs, roundels, fonts, colours etc are made up??
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/about/corp-design/standards-underground.shtml
There’s a PDF file there that gives precise details of how the roundel is made up, and what standards are involved in ‘drawing’ one.
It even includes the maps! Grr!
March 13th, 2006 at 11:35 pm
This radio interview is it going to be on the BBC Five Live Pods and Blogs hour at 2am? http://www.bbc.co.uk/fivelive/programmes/upallnight_blog/
March 13th, 2006 at 11:39 pm
Might be!
March 13th, 2006 at 11:43 pm
You’ve been Boing Boinged.
http://www.boingboing.net/2006/03/13/transport_for_london.html
Watch your bandwidth bills go thru the roof
March 13th, 2006 at 11:49 pm
Yaaaayyy!!
The whole world is now watching my website. 13 minutes to go!
March 13th, 2006 at 11:51 pm
Counting them down with you Geoff
March 13th, 2006 at 11:52 pm
Couple of points…
You’ll be happy to know you can buy a Musicians and bands version of the map on the LT Museum site for all of £7.95 - a little bit more than LT paid Harry Beck for his life’s work. Oh, all right, five guineas was worth a bit more back then.
http://www.ltmuseumshop.co.uk/product.asp?prod_id=460
So what about photographs I take in London that the LT roundel happens to appear in? Do I have to Photoshop them out before I do anything with them?
Keep up the great work – common sense will, hopefully, prevail.
March 13th, 2006 at 11:52 pm
No surrender Geoff. Don’t let em win…. 8 mins to go
March 13th, 2006 at 11:57 pm
Almost time…
March 13th, 2006 at 11:58 pm
Cue the big ben bongs - it’s like New Years Eve all over again!
March 13th, 2006 at 11:59 pm
Party Poppers at the ready…
March 14th, 2006 at 12:00 am
Noooo….
March 14th, 2006 at 12:00 am
Wait for it.. baited breath…
March 14th, 2006 at 12:00 am
Who hit ‘F5′ first then? CTRL-F5 for those of you who like to cache… (Both IE and Firefox!)
March 14th, 2006 at 12:01 am
Waiting for it…
March 14th, 2006 at 12:01 am
At the third beeb it will be midnight exactly! Beep Beep Beep
March 14th, 2006 at 12:01 am
F5
March 14th, 2006 at 12:01 am
Don’t forget the front page
March 14th, 2006 at 12:05 am
Geoff, your maps are so good, goodluck
(ohh, its tomorrow!)
March 14th, 2006 at 12:05 am
What is it we are waiting for…can’t take anymore suspense
March 14th, 2006 at 12:05 am
Don’t worry - it’s just delayed.
March 14th, 2006 at 12:15 am
Mmmm. I’ll probably change that at somepoint.
March 14th, 2006 at 12:27 am
Heh, nice page….right, bed time..Night night
March 14th, 2006 at 12:28 am
Hi Geoff, please please stand up to these morons. As has already been mentioned trademark law doesn’t apply as your use is non-commercial. So this would be grounds for summary judgement in a tm infringement suit.
Secondly, this is “fair dealing” under copyright law. It is a low-resolution parody and you are not making money from it.
You should call their bluff. Let them sue you - they won’t stand a chance of winning. You’ll be doing us all a favour!
Emil
March 14th, 2006 at 12:32 am
Go Geoff! I look forward to events as they unfold…..
March 14th, 2006 at 12:39 am
Geoff! You outlaw!!! I can’t wait for events to unfold. I’m not going to be able to sleep with the suspense.
March 14th, 2006 at 1:16 am
I’ve raked out soe old, long-unused webspace for a miror: http://scary10.fortunecity.com/tube/
(I’ve made a few changes to the very top and bottom though)
March 14th, 2006 at 1:17 am
I am supportive, and have just made a blogspot blog to host your images, considering that the first comment mentioned how impossible it is to get rid of them! Cheers!
My website where i’ll be posting more and more of your images! HAHAH TAKE THAT FUCKERS!
March 14th, 2006 at 1:29 am
Ok i posted some images, its all i’m gonna do, and they dont have tube related names, so you wont find them in a search without before and knoweldge. this effort wont help, but w/e, its something …
http://tubemapremix.blogspot.com/
March 14th, 2006 at 2:13 am
Right, well I’m about to be on Radio 5 Live right now … !
http://www.bbc.co.uk/fivelive/programmes/upallnight.shtml
March 14th, 2006 at 2:38 am
Well, more like now.
March 14th, 2006 at 2:46 am
Yay!! They edited out all my shit bits except for one .. i sounded quite good!
March 14th, 2006 at 2:55 am
Here’s that piece again for anyone that missed it …
http://www23.ath.cx:8080/files/geoff_on_radio5.mp3
March 14th, 2006 at 3:23 am
Thanks Chris! (whoever you are!) Gonna blog it & upload the MP3 myself anyway as new post tomorrow, but ta!
March 14th, 2006 at 3:44 am
I’m also hosting the maps on my blog. Cheers, dude.
March 14th, 2006 at 5:24 am
[...] “This firm acts for Transport for London and Transport Trading Limited who are respectively the owner and licensee of the world-famous bar and circle device (’the Roundel’) and the Tube Map.” Yet another situation where a company instructs its attorneys to sue a fan site into oblivion. I swear, I’ll never understand it. (tags: subway) [...]
March 14th, 2006 at 8:19 am
One more mirror (in the HUGE list)
http://www.hrishi.org/sillymaps/
March 14th, 2006 at 8:37 am
I can’t say i unerstand why the geographically accurate map has gone? On what grounds did they object to that?
March 14th, 2006 at 9:23 am
Well, it’s gone 9am in the offices of Twat, Dick and Wanker, Solicitors.
I wonder if they’re sending you an email right now telling you that you’re about to be taken to court …
March 14th, 2006 at 10:41 am
Have they really nowt better to do than hassle you?? Comical!! Keep up the good work fella.
March 14th, 2006 at 11:23 am
I was so angry when I came across this story a week or so ago that I posted this on my site:
=====================================
**Don’t you just hate spoilsports…?**
Especially when they’re big corporate
bully boys picking on the little guy?
The story behind this little hissy fit:
Rod found an interesting link to a version of the London Underground map. Some smart person had produced a map in which all the stations’ names appeared as anagrams. Very clever, very funny.
Unfortunately T.P.T.B. were unimpressed. They took such a dim view of this person’s efforts that the next time I went to the site, the map was gone and this message was in its place.
Content removed at the request of
Healeys Solicitors acting on behalf
of Transport for London
and Transport Trading Ltd
But Rod’s managed to track down another copy of the anagram map and you can view the full-size map here:
http://www.pandemonium.me.uk/images/anagrammapfullsize.gif
===============================
I’ve also made a little icon with my own personal message to TFL and their solicitors which is posted beside this rant and you’re welcome to use it. {veg}
Best wishes,
Sue - totally unimpressed by TFL and their legal beagles.
–
March 14th, 2006 at 11:41 am
gosh, because you were such a threat to TFL and LU weren’t you. of course people are going to stop using the tube and giving them money if you had these maps on your website. of course they had to threaten you with legal action. you were a dangerous threat to their company!
all together now, “london underground, theyre all lazy fucking useless cunts!”
March 14th, 2006 at 12:37 pm
“It just fell onto my web server…”
http://www.phoenixproductions.org.uk/SillyTubeMaps/sillytube.html
March 14th, 2006 at 12:51 pm
Hmm - are they going to go after The Tate, then?
http://www.tate.org.uk/servlet/ViewWork?cgroupid=999999961&workid=21700&searchid=7340&tabview=image
Simon Patterson’s The Great Bear was painted in 1992 - has he been sued yet?
March 14th, 2006 at 12:53 pm
Yet another mirror has appeared on my Google Pages space. No idea how that happened.
http://irregularshed.googlepages.com
March 14th, 2006 at 1:30 pm
For requests under Freedom of Information act you should email
enquire@tfl.gov.uk
This is incase you would like to ask how much was spent last quarter on “cease and desist” notices. Or a list of non-commercial sites that received the cease and desist notices, or how much Bob Crowe spent on prawn sandwiches, or how many pairs of shoes are allocated to each employee..
You get the idea
March 14th, 2006 at 5:18 pm
i can’t work out how to make the images appear, of course as any member of the public could post on my wiki they could get put there…
March 14th, 2006 at 6:55 pm
What a pompous, joyless, idiotic behemoth of a bureaucratic waste of space some twonk at TfL has clearly been.
Intellectual property was never my area, sad to say, otherwise this particular member of the legal community would quite happily have provided a bit of pro bono advice.
I found my way here through a completely unrelated site on which a link to a puzzle of one of the silly tubemaps had been posted (a site which a friend of mine also frequents who did the Tube Challenge last year. In fact, two of my friends did it - best not forget that or I will be in schtuck).
Best advice: if you communicate with their lawyers again, do it in writing, make sure it’s all recordable. If they insist on phones, record the conversation or else put it on speakerphone and get someone to take notes for you. (Shades of Sir Ian Blair there, potentially, but never mind).
Good luck!!
March 14th, 2006 at 7:44 pm
Well, it stinks, and I downloaded all your great stuff this morning so I’m hosting it myself. People will obviously have to find it though as I am sure you will be obliged to divulge the identity of anyone you know to be mirroring your site.
March 14th, 2006 at 8:18 pm
Here in Toronto, the local transit commission (cleverly calling themselves the “Toronto Transit Commission” or TTC for short) has pulled a similar trick on ttcrider.ca, a fan site for the miserable bastards who had done up a wonderful anagram routemap.
Although the TTC has been falling apart for years, with declining service and increasing fares, this is still how they choose to spend their time. Wankers.
See for yourself over at http://www.ttcrider.ca/anagram.php
March 14th, 2006 at 9:02 pm
Another mirror, just to add to the chaos
http://www.hawksleyworkman.net/sillytube.html
March 14th, 2006 at 9:19 pm
Burntool - why not just put a general link in here, not a specific one to your mirror?
March 15th, 2006 at 1:26 am
Hi Geoff, just heard bout what happened at the pub today. Good luck in the case against TFL, they deserve a kicking after all we went through during Tube Relief.
March 15th, 2006 at 2:35 am
I read somewhere that with some html trickery you can serve a different version of a website depending on where the requestor was coming from. So, anyone surfing to your sillytube page from we’reabunchoflawyers.tu.tfl.whatever would see a nice clean “no roundels here” page, but everyone else would see whatever is really there. Of course, that trick only works on stupid people…
March 15th, 2006 at 2:00 pm
All very depressing isn’t it.
Tried to do my bit by getting the word, and the maps, out to a larger audience.
http://www.ektopia.co.uk/ektopia/archives/2006/03/15/silly-tube-maps-get-bullied-by-the-london-underground
This part (from the underground history Wiki page) had me amazed…
“This approach is similar to that of electrical circuit diagrams; while these weren’t the inspiration for Beck’s diagram, his colleagues pointed out the similarities and he once produced a joke map with the stations replaced by electrical-circuit symbols and names with terminology: “bakelite” for “Bakerloo”, etc.”
The main man would have submitted designs for you to host too Geoff!
March 15th, 2006 at 4:14 pm
mate, i can’t believe this. it’s fucking mad! especially when you’ve basically waged a 5 year PR campaign for them.
I’ve actually refunded my annual travel card and am going to use my car and taxis instead.
arseholes.
i’m furious!
March 15th, 2006 at 4:19 pm
Another response from a London Assembly member (via http://www.writetothem.com which I would again encourage you all to use and drop a note to your London Assembly member).
> This seems an over-the-top response from TfL. I can
> table a formal question to the Mayor although the
> next opportunity to table questions
> will not be until after the May local elections.
>
> Darren
>
> Cllr. Darren Johnson AM
> Green Party Group
> London Assembly
If a few more people write to their representatives, there is more chance of this being raised, and more chance that something useful might get down via the Assembly.
March 15th, 2006 at 6:31 pm
Oddly, the files have mysteriously made their way into my local Apache htdocs. Wonder how that happened. They’re sitting on the end of an ADSL connection, however, so responses may be slow
March 15th, 2006 at 6:33 pm
*kicks the blog software* You’ll notice that there’s no link to the aforementioned site in the previous comment.
March 15th, 2006 at 10:25 pm
Might be worth trying Ken directly when he next appears on a LBC or BBC London phone-in. He gives quite open and clear responses to callers problems, and I’m sure he would be more sympathetic than TfL (not that that would be difficult!)
March 16th, 2006 at 9:20 am
Well, what a complete waste of time and presumably money on TfL’s part.
If I didn’t hold a Freedom Pass, I would have to conduct a COBA on all my future use of the Underground, in protest at this.
Still, at least I can whine even more loudly now when the Rent Horn line plays up on my journeys between Candle Oil and Nabk.
March 16th, 2006 at 9:51 am
Why not just host your site in the US, cite Freedom of Speech and then tell them to Go Fuck themselves ?
March 16th, 2006 at 9:56 am
As I noted to the author of an opinion piece on The Register (yep Geoff, you’re on El Reg), some of the maps are exceptionally useful (like the walking map, the time between stations map, the loo map etc) and I wouldn’t consider those an issue… if anything, they make the Tube easier to use! But hey… lawyers will be lawyers.
March 16th, 2006 at 10:47 am
Copyright law is copyright law and it means the holders can enforce it how they please, if that means taking it down from a public/popular site[1] then its up to them. If it was trademark, from my understanding, they would have to go after everyone.
However, copyright law also is only valid for the lifetime of the holder (70 years) and I’m pretty sure that cannot be renewed; even when the rights are sold on. If you dupe *only* the original 1931 design[2] and add manually updates to it from an independent copyright-free source[3], they should not be able to do a thing.
At that point I’m sure TFL cannot do a thing as its not theirs and the original copyright has expired. If they insist after that, write a detailed letter to Ken Livingstone explaining your situation and how you feel TFL are wasting resources (our taxpayers money in the subsidies we give them and the tickets we purchase) on ‘image protection’ and using empty threats to remove material they they do not officially control….he should be able to help. Do not be abrahsive with him, you will be ignored, be neutral in tone in the letter, but express your dispointment in the manner the situation has be handled. This should only be done *after* you have sent a letter to TFL and received an unsatisifactly response…Ken is not going to be interested if you have not gone through the proper channels.
The issue here is that you *are* using their copyrighted material, fairness has nothing to do with it although its obvious that TFL’s manglement are being shortsighted. If you do not use copyrighted material then no-one can clobber you for doing so.
Just my £0.02…
Cheers
Alex
[1] and no deep pockets to complain
and build your own ’source’
[2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Tube_map
[3] probably best to not use the offical maps as a source, just redo the *whole* underground again (try to beat your record
March 17th, 2006 at 9:53 am
To me it seems a waste of public money.
March 17th, 2006 at 4:28 pm
It occurs to me that if all those who commented here wrote a letter to the solicitors in question asking for their reasoning on the matter and requesting that they inform their clients of the content of each letter and the disagreement with this act that the resulting legal fees for the replies, contact with the client etc. would run very high. I would be surprised if 188 letters couldn’t generate 200,000 in fees. This might put the actions in perspective for TFL and cause them to stick to bothering the people actually ripping them off. They could just as easily have asked you to put a note on the site saying something like “images used with permission of TFL” which would have been more sensible and probably met their needs.
March 17th, 2006 at 7:11 pm
#187 Copyright is valid for 70 years after death. However, the copyright of the tube map would fall to TfL now - it can be transfered. My understanding is that Copyright of the current map would include all versions up to and including it.
March 17th, 2006 at 9:56 pm
ahhh… the cycle of bureaucracy. You don’t run a good business by picking on people that surport and give recommendations too. It’s there loss in the end. If I where a lawyer I would support you mate!
March 17th, 2006 at 11:23 pm
Geoff, you have my comiserations.
LT (they will always be LT to me) are getting really stuck up their own arses over this.
Looks like someone over there has had a common sense failure. What a bunch of grey suited cunts they must be.
Spotted that you were `in trouble` when I looked at The Register` yesterday. Hope it all gets sorted in your favour.
March 18th, 2006 at 4:29 pm
One more mirror:
http://www.opentopia.com/tubemaps/
March 19th, 2006 at 11:13 am
Hi Geoff,
I emailed TFL from their site and got this reply :
Jonathan,
Thank you for your email.
We asked the creator of these map variations to withdraw them from their website simply because they did not have our permission to use it. It should be noted that they were happy to comply with our request.
In general, we do not allow the Tube map to be published with changes to the official version. There are several reasons for this:
It is a working map designed to help passengers navigate around the Tube system and we do not want people to be confused by multiple versions.
If we allow multiple versions to exist, it weakens TfL’s legal claim to the map being TfL property.
The map is a design classic and worldwide icon for the Tube and London. It is an excellent example of London Underground’s famous design heritage which is still useful and relevant today. As such, TfL has a duty to protect it and ensure it is used in a respectful manner.
However, very occasionally, we will grant permission to publish an altered version but various factors are considered before granting permission. These include whether or not the altered version causes any damage to the TfL brand - ie: whether it contradicts any TfL policies; whether it causes offence to our passengers; whether is it for a good cause.
Regards,
Matthew Bland
Transport for London
which doesn’t make much sense to me,
but then none of this stuff ever does!
March 19th, 2006 at 7:53 pm
What do those democratically accountable for TfL, the Mayor and London Assembly, have to say about this nonsense? If I can do anything to raise this at a political level please ask.
March 19th, 2006 at 8:05 pm
Why are all the tubechallenge pages down (404 errors) too? Surely the TfL mafia can’t object to them?
March 19th, 2006 at 10:15 pm
Geoff will correct me on this I’m sure, but I think he took it down to be on the safe side.
March 20th, 2006 at 6:41 am
I was so fucked off with the whole thing, I took ALL of my tube pages down, yes. They are now back though - but looking messy and hacked to pieces.
I’ll tidy them up one day if I can be bothered, but don’t expect that anytime soon. I’m too fucked off wiht the whole thing, and have got better things going on in my life to be spending my time on at the moment than worrying about shit like this.
March 20th, 2006 at 12:55 pm
Re: email in #194
Geofftech isn’t the creator of the maps, they are going after the wrong man… and he certainly isn’t happy to comply with the request!
March 20th, 2006 at 6:23 pm
I would just like to point out:
http://web.archive.org/web/20050204132937/www.geofftech.co.uk/tube/sillymaps/index.htm
March 20th, 2006 at 9:39 pm
This post is a record. No blog post of Geoff’s before has had more than 200 comments.
TfL are never going to manage to take down every copy of the maps. The archive.org website is not even based in the UK and so TfL would have trouble attacking them.
March 21st, 2006 at 7:28 am
I think the ‘rude map’ is going to be very popular after this, it seems to make more sense now. Maybe it was just ahead of it’s time (match the rude names with those who run the company). Anywho, your not filthy stinking rich so your busted, but keep on smiling (they really hate the look of smiling faces).
One can only hope that in the near future someone even richer than they sues them for something similar (like in the beginning of THHGTTU, by Douglas Adam).
March 22nd, 2006 at 12:29 am
Oh dear. Sorry to hear that TFL’s solicitors have gotten to you too Geoff and thank you for hosting my anagram map. I had a similar brush with Sallianne Cockerham of Healy’s solicitors who represent TFL. I host the London Underground Anagram map myself for now though others have offered to mirror it; but what I’ve also done is to share the image on a peer to peer filesharing program (I use Emule). If you also use a similar program why not share them this way too? All the best with your site; it’s great.
March 30th, 2006 at 8:50 am
A couple of years ago, TfL liked the Tube Animals thing so much that they even plugged it on their free page in Metro.
I wonder why this didn’t confuse the poor, befuddled travelling public…
April 3rd, 2006 at 8:07 am
I read the article in Time Out that Tfl have bullied you with their lawyers in taking the tube maps of your site. If Tfl concentrated on running a transport system rather harrassing people who are only having a some none-profitable fun, I think that we would have a more safe and efficient transport system. I am getting extremely pissed with Tfl, they seem to allow the buses to be driven by people whose only apparent qualification is an out of date television receiver licence and who drive the vehicles as if they were fairground rides. There was a recent bus crash down the New Kent Road in the middle of the rush hour, so traffic is moving slowly, the road is straight but the driver had managed to drive the bus into a tree! causing injuries to a number of passengers. Safety considerations, it seems, are not high on Tfl’s list of priorities; corporate image is - this is a wonderful example of triumph of image over substance.
April 26th, 2006 at 11:16 am
And here I thought that this sort of waste was a silly American pass time. Nothing like a bunch of lawyers to muck up a good thing.
April 30th, 2006 at 7:21 pm
Geoff, if you ever gat a banner made, I’ll gladly link to you.
Surely they can’t take on the ‘internet’ and win?…
April 30th, 2006 at 11:21 pm
Can we stop the lawyer bashing? TfL have made the commercial decision to control publication of the map/roundel. They have instructed their lawyers to enforce that decision. Ergo, its TfL and not the lawyers who need bashing!
May 14th, 2006 at 8:35 am
HERE YOU GO http://tubes.150m.com/
May 19th, 2006 at 11:52 pm
[...] Just a brief heads up to http://www.geofftech.co.uk/iblog/?p=235 - I saw it via a link from Simon Cozen’s blog and it really is worth a look. Comisserations to the guy for getting caught up in the workings of corporate *rude word* [...]
January 8th, 2009 at 5:29 pm
[...] sad story here (harms TFL’s image much more than some silly [...]