Hypocritical?
Ok. This is a confusing post! Pay attention:
I posted (the post below) here at 6am this morning. After 10 comments, I got an email from the Managing Director of my host (ClaraNet), and I took this post down, and then tried to contact him.
I had a little trouble getting through to him at first, but eventually got to speak to him on the phone just now, and had a very pleasant conversation, by which time the comments had reached number 17, and I’m now putting the post back up again. There weren’t getting as huffy as I thought they were, and I was just getting into a panic by taking my stuff down so soon again. Geddit? (Good, ’cause I don’t!) Anyway . . .
So they pissed me off. I took all my stuff down. I officially got the hump like a child throwing his toys out of the pram and took all my tube stuff down. But now I’ve had people emailing me saying “But you’ve taken all your stuff down! - can’t you at least put some of it back without the logos?”, so now I have done.
I almost couldn’t be bothered to blog about it anymore, until rather marvellously someone pointed this out to me today:
Go and have a look at the following page:
www.tfl.gov.uk/tube/contacts/links/about-tube.asp
It’s on TFL’s own site. Their own fcuking website (a site so badly designed, that it doesn’t even display in Firefox properly) - and what’s on it? Links to other ‘enthusiasts’ sites that talk about the London Underground. So I’m assuming it’s perfectly ok to use this image show here, as they themselves use it on their own website. If they’re not happy with it - what are they going to do, threaten themselves with legal action? Take their own website down?
They also link to a fair few other sites which use the roundel, and graphics etc … and yet instead of threatening them with taking their sites down, they’re actually promoting them on the TFL website. Perhaps someone from TFL reading this now would care to explain this warped logic?
So it’s obvious that we can all have a roundel like logo that isn’t the actual roundel, but it would be nice to have some guidelines TFL on exactly how close all us ‘enthusiast’ sites can get to it without actually having the real thing itself.
So I’m running a competition: Feel free to send me in your variations and designs of the roundel (email them to me), and if I feel I can get away with it - I’ll publish some of the best ones. As we can all see now that it’s perfectly ok to have a not-quite-complete red circle with a blue bar through it - anything less than that must also be perfectly acceptable.
Oh, and apparantly I’m in Metro this morning, as well as Time Out next week - so make sure you all grab a copy.
After living in London for the first 33 years of my life and working for the 
So for ten weeks in June, July and August 2009, I drove 20,000 miles around the the lower 48 contiguous states of the USA visiting towns and places that shared the same name as places on The London
March 20th, 2006 at 8:58 am
F5! Congrats on the Metro appearance! I’ll look out for you. If I have a spare 10 mins I’ll do a roundel later as well…
March 20th, 2006 at 10:18 am
I reckon you should apply to be an external link on their site …
March 20th, 2006 at 11:10 am
Oh good. You’re back. I thought for a moment TFL had had you deported.
March 20th, 2006 at 11:33 am
wooo! geoff lives on, i will be submitting A roundel asap.
March 20th, 2006 at 12:04 pm
It’s obviously not about the roundel, but the fact someone within TFL has taken offence to you “making fun” of the tube. Shallow gits.
March 20th, 2006 at 1:27 pm
I’ll reiterate: They’re a bunch of fucking c**ts.
Here’s the Metro article in full. It occupies a 2″ x 3″ space on page 11.
SUPPORT FOR TUBE GOES DOWN DRAIN
HE SET up a website dedicated to the Tube and holds the world record for visiting every station in the shortest time, but self-confessed fanatic Geoff Marshall now refuses to use it. He was forced to remove ‘alternative’ Underground maps from the website he set up by Transport for London officials because they said he had not asked their permission to use them. “I’m driving a car now in protest,” he said. “And people have told me they are not renewing their Travelcards in support.”
That’s about as much support as they could have given, though, given that the Metro is a bit of a big TfL advert. Surprised, though, that they didn’t take the opportunity to sneer at Geoff further.
Incidentally there is an In Brief letter from an A. Smith (not me), explaining (coincidentally) that a group of nerds is called a “pride”!
March 20th, 2006 at 1:29 pm
God, what losers. Good on you for sticking it to them. Loving the blog, as always…Laura
March 20th, 2006 at 1:46 pm
Interesting article … my Brummy copy of the Metro doesn’t have the article in so thanks for posting Anthony!
Got a great idea for my roundel, so I hope no one nicks my idea!
March 20th, 2006 at 1:58 pm
I’ve had an idea too, but I think everyone will do it too.
March 20th, 2006 at 2:01 pm
First draft.
http://img76.imageshack.us/my.php?image=geofftech9my.gif
Better version later.
March 20th, 2006 at 2:25 pm
He’s not the messiah. He’s a very naughty boy
March 20th, 2006 at 3:17 pm
What did they say you have done this time?
March 20th, 2006 at 3:28 pm
Oh, for the love of God. I bet it was the abuse that I administered in comment 6…
March 20th, 2006 at 3:39 pm
Yes, calling LU “a bunch of fucking c**ts” isn’t really going to endear you or the blog author to them is it?
March 20th, 2006 at 4:18 pm
Nope. It isn’t. It’s no grounds for them to ask the webmaster to alter the post in any way, however, as it wasn’t Geoff who said the incriminating words, and they weren’t said in the original post. The comment itself has not been deleted.
March 20th, 2006 at 4:19 pm
I guess, the argument is, they can show what ever they want on their sites.
But, the question is, have the sites they linked to been threatened?
(OK, that part was stuck into notepad earlier as internet at work wouldn’t let me post)
Oh for heavens sake. I don’t blame you for feeling piee’d off with it all Geoff.. I truily don’t
March 20th, 2006 at 4:20 pm
Sorry to double-post, but what’s TfL’s stance on the famous London Underground spoof song by Amateur Transplants? It would be strange indeed for LU to spasmodically lash out against a single derogatory sentence (which was hardly the most constructive of criticism, was it?!) and yet not against such a musical tirade of abuse as that…
March 20th, 2006 at 4:40 pm
#17 - Well if TFL get sniffy about that, they should know that that song got emailed round the whole of LU on the internal email system faster than you could say “Mind the gap”, and all the staff had a bloody good laugh about it.
Which is what TFL need to do .. lighten up, see the amusing side of spoof maps, and worry about more important things in life.
March 20th, 2006 at 4:44 pm
Such as fixing their transport system, for example.
March 20th, 2006 at 5:08 pm
I can do a better one when I get home if no one else has, but a very quick one with the (not very good) camera phone shows you your article. Blurry though!
March 20th, 2006 at 5:09 pm
OK, it won’t let me do that.
Try, for now, This
March 20th, 2006 at 5:11 pm
One final attempt
March 20th, 2006 at 5:19 pm
‘Tube geek’ in trouble again
…
Marshall told the Register: “First of all I am not a tube geek or tube spotter - I do have a life, honestly.”
You’ve got to love The Register don’t you
( http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/03/20/tube_man_isp_sued/ )
P.S. Haven’t travelled on tfl since, and don’t intend to until they get a grip.
March 20th, 2006 at 5:20 pm
Well, if it’s any help Geoff, I looked at the maps, and pointed out to El Reg that many of your maps had uses… like the loo map, the map of average travel times, and the geographically correct map (hah, then John Oates just mentioned it in his follow-up article). It’s been very insightful and I found it interesting enough to spelunk the Net for a while to see what else on the Tube I could find.
So *ptooi* to TfL. Shame on you folks, shame, shame, shame! To take down a pretty damn good resource, make it out as being of the devil (well, close enough really), all the while advertising other ‘enthusiast sites’, that just stinks. Shameful.
March 20th, 2006 at 5:24 pm
I should point out in respect to the latest Register article, that they wrote that BEFORE I spoke to the people at ClaraNet this afternoon, and I need to iterate, that they are actually being quite nice and reasonable about it at the moment.
It’s still time to move host though - Clara even suggested this themselves! - Most obviously to a USA based one where the laws are different to what they are here in the UK.
So all US web hosting recommendations now glady welcome…
March 20th, 2006 at 5:51 pm
Dreamhost. Reasonably priced with excellent features and service.
March 20th, 2006 at 5:58 pm
I normally look at http://www.webhostingtalk.com/ before going for any host. Also they have an offers section so might be worth looking, Geoff!
March 20th, 2006 at 6:09 pm
Hi Geoff,
I only came here because of the links on the Register, so at the very least looks like you’ve got some more traffic.
I managed to find some of the maps that you have by (ahem) searching for them.
I noticed one of them (although of course you’re not hosting it now) was drawn by me!!! Many moons ago.
It’s the geographic one. The headings and stuff have been removed.
I still have the vector version somewhere I think.
Anyway I guess that means my lawyers will be after you for copyright.
If only I had a lawyer
Perhaps I’m in trouble now.
Best of luck!
Lee
March 20th, 2006 at 7:34 pm
this is slightly like the one that has been mentioned before, but try this out (you can make it look better than the one here - i was rushing…)
http://jonnylyon.net/geoff%20roundel.GIF
March 20th, 2006 at 8:16 pm
The “loo” map was actually incorrect. Although Notting Hill Gate has toilets, they’ve been locked up for at least the last 5-10 years.
I would move the site to the US. Russia would be safest…
March 20th, 2006 at 8:16 pm
Ok, I meant wouldn’t not would in that last post!
March 20th, 2006 at 10:24 pm
‘e’s on The Register again!
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/03/20/tube_man_isp_sued/
March 21st, 2006 at 1:21 am
jeff, i can offer some advice on this as im actually in the process of taking legal action against the bbc over a similar copyright issue (and winning i might add). the basis of all diagrams, maps, schematics and so on is where points are in them. in order to argue copyright has been infringed you would have to have the same marks of the artist in them as the originals, some of your maps such as the geographical one of the underground dont have this at all. for example with the Ordnance Survey in their pursuit of the AA over copying of maps. they pointed out inter alia, for example, that the widths of the tramlines representing roads on maps is arbitrary and constitutes an element of the fingerprint of the map maker. the widths on AA maps apparently matched those of OS maps, if yuo can do similar maps that avoid using the original images and appear to be similar but are actually subtly different you can get away with it. dont worry about using the same colours more or less as tube lines just dont use the exact same ones, the govt doesnt sue map makers who put a motorway on a map for being blue for example. your geographical map of london for example clearly has NOTHING to do with the tube and youre not violating their copyright at all with it, others it appears you currently are although they are being morons in complaining becauase ill be damned if i can see a loss to them. they could take you to court but the judge would award them zero damages, the best they could do right now would to get an injunction requiring to remove the images and serve up all copies of them. on the other hand the damage they are doing to the LU is massive and far outweighs any gain, they should remember this commercial reality rather than wasting huge amounts of money on bad p.r. they are right that not defending ALL trademark infringements means someone can let the trademark be argued against in court as hoover once discovered but they are going on about copyright with the maps so it is hard to see how it applies in this case. if TFL had any sense they’d give you a license for free, market your silly maps to tourists, instead of wasting out money on this rubbish they are doing. geoff, i will put you in touch with a couple of people if you want including the guy who wrote a recent tube atlas, email me off here and ill give you his details.
March 21st, 2006 at 4:23 am
Geoff,
Sorry to hear about the TfL debacle. If you’re looking for good webhosting try http://www.site5.com - ridiculously cheap and excellent to boot!
Chris
March 21st, 2006 at 9:05 am
“Most obviously to a USA based one where the laws are different to what they are here in the UK.”
Er, slightly. You’d still have to be willing to foot the lawyer’s bill - no ISP is going to go to bat for you. You’d probably win, but would it be worth it?
March 21st, 2006 at 11:11 am
I buy US hosting that I’m not currently using.
I’ll be more than happy for you to use it if you want it. If you’d like a detail of what it offers drop me an email and I’ll send you some specs back.
Tim
March 21st, 2006 at 11:45 am
The really sad thing about all this is that TfL pick on someone who is media savvy - i.e. they work for the BBC! If ever there was a bad target it’s someone who has friends in the media, especially a media as respected as the BBC. Maybe they WANT the publicity they are generating. Maybe they WANT this to go further, both to make a public example of Geoff and also for a bit of publicity for themselves.
Either that or they are bored. Or they are a wunch of bankers. Or both. Especially the latter.
http://www.badongo.net/pic/136019
March 21st, 2006 at 2:17 pm
You made the back page of Ariel as well
March 21st, 2006 at 3:58 pm
What’s Ariel? Does anyone have a scan?
March 21st, 2006 at 4:30 pm
Ariel is the BBC’s internal Newspaper, Geoffs been on the back page (the “fun” page - the rest is all about selling off everything and replacing it with managers) before with the ipod thing. This week’s ariel hasn’t reached Wood Norton yet
March 21st, 2006 at 9:22 pm
another article on elreg from a clara.net MD
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/03/21/clara_blames_law/
March 21st, 2006 at 9:32 pm
Hey Geoff,
Long time no see, I just saw you on El Reg and I was frankly disgusted. I’m in the process of sending out abusive emails to various people at TfL for a laugh. Will probably also cover myself and see how far the FoI Act will get me, hoppe you don’t mind but I’m asking them for all paperwork pertaining to you (excluding personal information).
If you need a hand with anything let me know, all my resources are at your disposal. I was going to offer you the use of our broadcast kit (but you might easily get it elsewhere) or an account on my host (but my server is in Telehouse).
Care to start up a “save Geoff Marshall” fund? I’ll put some pennies in? Hold the money in good stead and use it as a legal fund?
March 21st, 2006 at 9:49 pm
Go Marshall! Go Marshall!
It’s nice to see that the manager of Clara has the right sort of idea, even if he isn’t prepared to ignore TfL’s lawyers.
March 21st, 2006 at 10:06 pm
Bob Hannent - I’ve also made some FOI enquiries of Tfl. Not heard anything back (4 working days and counting. 16 to go before I can report them *L*). Mine have all been perfectly polite though - if you ahve been at all abusive in your emails, they can refuse to release the information to you.
March 21st, 2006 at 11:31 pm
Geoff, I cant believe all the hoop la over this… How can they be serious! Keep up yjr good site. I would die if I couldnt get my daily blogs worth!! Sorry I missed you, I will email you later…
March 22nd, 2006 at 12:26 am
Just read the case on The Register.
Guess if they had a *patent* on those tube maps, they might have a case. IANAL (I am not a
lawyer) but this sounds like some upwardly mobile freshly hired attorney is currently in must
and is trying to stake out his territory in the company. Le Sigh.
“The stuff” is of course still out there. Won’t post the link, just the hint: the wayback machine.
March 22nd, 2006 at 12:31 am
-Fimb- No, I haven’t been abusive on the FoI request thats ok.
But on the darkside of the force having just been to the pub discussing the matter with some persons also with an axe to grind and less to worry about it could be funny.
March 22nd, 2006 at 12:20 pm
#47: Patents don’t even come into it - even if they had managed to get one for the tube map (which I don’t think they could’ve done anyway), the monopoly only lasts for twenty years if I remember correctly, and Beck’s diagrammatic tube map concept is about 70 years old now. As I’ve said on previous posts, copyright is the only thing they’ve got a case for in my opinion, and even then it’s all a bit iffy (e.g. what income do they lose by people playing with a freely-distributed map?).
(as stated before, I’m not a lawyer, just someone with a freshly-aquired knowledge of basic UK IP law)
March 22nd, 2006 at 1:32 pm
Geoff, try Pair.com. Very reasonable, runs your *nix stuff perfectly fine
March 22nd, 2006 at 2:23 pm
Here is another mirror: http://www.falu.nl/sillymaps/sillytube.html
March 23rd, 2006 at 10:17 am
Hey Geoff, is there a problem with the Blog? Seems to keep crashing with a databse error?? Hope TFL havn’t secretly hacked into your code and bought you down from the inside
March 23rd, 2006 at 11:14 am
This is what comes of not hosting it in California, like mine
As pixeldiva said, go to Dreamhost. One-click Wordpress set-up and everything!
March 24th, 2006 at 4:34 pm
Get yourself writing the Ken Livingston . . .
He’s a crackpot and will love, it write the PM go on take the piss amte
March 28th, 2006 at 6:23 pm
[...] Geoff has found a friend in Time Out magazine this week who published the following story about his legal hassles with Transport for London. If you’re not familiar with the story, see here previously. The Register also posted a followup with the desperately spineless Claranet who were incapable of discerning barratry from genuine legal complaint in the simple case of linking to off-site content. John Oates reports that the CEO blames UK law and unbelievably, for the CEO of an internet hosting provider, recommends we host sites outside the UK. Well, we did that already. Geoff gives some updates here and here. The Metro printed a little piece about it, too. Excitingly, it may be that my email to Private Eye didn’t go astray, Geoff says the next issue should have something lambasting the costs of these legal efforts. When’s the next Eye out? [...]
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